Hyouka – 08 – 09
Lies.
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I wanted to get this arc over with in one post, but it looks like there’s yet another episode to it OTL. OH WELL. This arc has been one of the more interesting for me thus far, so I don’t mind it lasting a few more episodes. |
These past episodes actually had people dying! …Only not, because it was a movie. Actually, I really impressed that they did this since it keeps the realism, but gives the Classic’s Club (aka Houtarou) a chance to solve a murder mystery. I don’t even want to know what the budget was for having the animation constantly shaking and following the characters like that, but it was impressive to say the least since it totally looked like an amateur video. …There was something screwy about the whole thing since you’d think that they could go contact the script writer if they collapsed unless they were in a coma or something, but more on that later.
The most interesting part of episode 8 for me was when Satoshi started labelling them all by Tarot cards. I can see Chitanda as The Fool since it represents infinite possibilities (in her case, she wants to know everything). Mayaka (kind of sort of) works as Justice as well since the card can represent making decisions based on reasoning and logic instead of emotion (I dunno, I think of her blatant sarcasm). Houtarou as Strength is a bit of a hit and miss. It represents the power one receives from conviction and holding back inner desires and passion (think of his energy conserving attitude), but he’s kind of moving away from that more now. …The other thing the card represents is inner female strength and female empowerment. Eru and his sister hold power over him, and I think that’s what Satoshi was going for there, but card is more about personal inner strength… Eru’s card for Houtarou, The Star, was cute though. It represents enlightenment and hope (you know, since he’s always answering her questions). Satoshi’s own card was kind of… off though. The Magician is a card about forward movement and using your own power and resources to get things done. …I haven’t really seen him really do anything that connects him with that (maybe the author knows something I don’t about Satoshi or maybe it connects to the fact that he’s a ‘database’? I dunno). Nobody fits what the cards represent exactly. Overall, it’s like the author who wrote this kind of did research, but then just went with whatever title he thought fit best based on title (the club members could have fit just as well into other cards). The slight exception to that would be Irisu, as she actually fit her card The Empress, rather well. Not so much personality-wise, but with what she’s having the Classic’s Club do. The Empress card represents creation through letting things develop naturally with a few pushes here and there. That’s pretty much what she did with the Classic’s Club and this movie and now that Houtarou’s ‘growth’ is stuck, I bet you her meeting with him is to push him in the right direction again.
They were relying a LOT on the fact that the script writer was competent at their job. Sure, it was okay here since it’s anime and they explicitly said that the girl here was great at paying attention to detail and that she studied how to write mysteries, but I still think that’s leaving a lot to trust. The rest of the production doesn’t really scream ‘reliable’. You’d also think that finishing a half scripted movie would be more effort than writing a new one, but again, there’s something not right about the whole thing.
It was actually extremely interesting hearing all of the different theories and logic that the 3 people came up with. It went pretty much as I expected it to, but I was really intrigued about how the scriptwriter girl had surveyed the film site beforehand and had even written that the grass outside must be undisturbed. How far did she plan ahead for this? …And if you plan that far ahead, why the hell didn’t you write the second part of the script? I think the biggest mystery here isn’t the conclusion to the movie itself, but circumstances around the movie. My guess was that they hired the club to come up with an end on purpose. Their whole involvement seemed… planned somehow.
I never expected Eru to dislike mystery novels. I wonder if she even realizes how much she asks Houtarou to solve for her. Her getting drunk off of whiskey candies was… interesting as well. Does that girl’s moe level know no bounds? I knew from the start that her eating those was probably not a very good idea, but didn’t expect her little, uh, outburst near the end of the episode. It looked like she figured something out too. I bet that she doesn’t even remember it next episode or that she remembers it in an extremely convenient fashion. Anyways, it was interesting to see other characters from the Hyouka world for once since it’s only had a very few number of side characters thus far. When around them, Oreki really does seem like such an introvert. So the mystery still remains unsolved, but I doubt it will end just with that. I don’t think Eru could sleep at night unless Oreki comes up with a solution.
End Thoughts:
Best. Acting. Ever. I wonder what’s harder for a seasoned seiyuu. Acting well or having to pretend that they can’t act? The whole movie looked terrible, but at the same time, it was brilliant. KyoAni seriously paid attention to detail here and there was so much effort into making something look somewhat terrible. Sure, it probably wasn’t necessary, but it was a nice detail nonetheless. That aside though, I like how this show can still keep everything realistic, but still add in a ‘murder’ mystery of sorts. This way, we get the satisfaction of watching Houtarou solve a crime while keeping it 100% believable. I think this is my favourite arc so far in Hyouka because of all of the possibility exploring. All of the other mysteries before had only one true answer, and while I’m sure this does too, there’s way more room for exploration since it’s based on fiction.
Hyouka threw up a lot of mentions to Holmes, but I confess to never actually reading a single novel of him. …Or seeing the movies. …Or having anything to do with anything regarding Holmes (unless you want to count me watching Milky Holmes, which is probably the farthest thing possible from the actual novels). I’m not entirely familiar with the whole rules for writing mystery either, but like I said before, they’re putting a ton of trust on the fact that the writer knew what she was doing. This episode seemed overly long with buildup. I’m sure there were a ton of hints thrown at us regarding the mystery of the script, but at this point, it’s still frustrating not knowing what’s going on entirely. I don’t even think that we’ve received THE clue that usually gets Houtarou thinking and solving things yet; it’s just been 2 episodes of smaller clues. Other then that, watching Houtarou and team correct any flaws in logic while people try to figure out the ending to the movie was great. The last time Hyouka did this at Eru’s house was great to see (mostly because it allows me to make guess the solution along the way and then have Houtarou point out how stupid my theory is), so it was nice to see it again here. …Though personally, I just assume that every closed room mystery is an accidental suicide. So I imagine that next week will be the actual solution to the whole mystery. I can’t imagine them dragging this arc out longer unless the solution is extremely vague or complicated.
About Karakuri
University student and the one at Metanorn who's known for wearing glasses. Likes blood, insanity and plot twists, but also plays otome games and adores cute romance anime. It balances out... somehow.
POWUH: and LOLi Defender with 10998 comments
TL;DR Everyone is prejudiced about what they know, and Chitanda likes to get her drink on.
I haven’t seen anyone remark upon the notes found in the collected editions of Sherlock Holmes. As Ibara would point out, I am a Sherlockian. But as Satoshi says, that goes a bit to far.
That was an exchange that struck me, and I don’t know if it is pertinent to this show or not, but here goes:
Many of the stories listed on the scriptwriter’s notes that have a triangle to mark them have plots about either mistaken identity or have a plot twist because of someone giving Holmes or Watson false information, either deliberately (Five Orange Pips) or well intention-ed (The Speckled Band)
Also, if Satoshi is a Sherlockian like myself, he engages in both the Watsonian and Doylist debates.
To clarify. Arthur Conan Doyle, didn’t come to enjoy the Holmes stories as much as the public did. As a result, he typically ended up writing whatever suited his fancy. One of the things which suffered because of that was continuity between stories.
The most egregious example being The Final Problem and later The Valley of Fear. The second title takes place before the first, yet was written second. The first story introduces Moriarty to the reading public, and Watson has never heard of him. The Valley of Fear has Watson knowing Moriarty personally.
Dis-continuity.
A Watsonian will makes excuses for this slip, the most famous being that as Holmes writer, Watson is obliged not to tell the complete truth. A Doylist will simply realize that Doyle didn’t care about continuity and be done with it.
Satoshi is like myself, he sees value in both arguments without committing fully to either. A true database.
This is unlike our three theorists. All of them see the whole story, missing script and all, through the prejudice of the job they perform.
The PR persons sees the end in terms of something she can sell the public on.
The Props Master sees the end in terms of his hands on experience, and only in that way.
The Assistant Director sees it in terms of how easily it can be filmed to get to the end of production.
I’m reminded of a Holmsian spin-off, House MD. House says that given a mystery disease, an oncologist will see cancer, an immunologist will see auto-immune disease, and a neurologist will see a brain issue. All of them mildly prejudiced to the job they do.
I like how this story is set up. It is such a great Locked-Room story. So great that they don’t even need a room, much less a lock.
Good eye on the Tarot cards, Kara. I used to read them myself. Now, I don’t believe in any supernatural or psychic powers. Honestly, it’s all a con to me. And I found that in reading them, a client would allow me to be wrong on so many occasions, just as long as I was right on the important ones. Cold reading using cards as a reference point.
And finally. As a life long resident of the state of Kentucky, we have bourbon balls/whiskey chocolates in the drinking water! And no one gets drunk on them by “accident”. Chitanda knew what she was doing…
POWUH: Meta Team and Megane-chan with 3214 comments
Dear lord, you actually explained that in a way that made sense to me. Truly a great feat, skylion. In any case, their prejudice certainly was interesting to watch. I never thought of their answers pertaining to their jobs though.
The Tarot was interesting, if… incomplete. I’ve been reading for friends for years and can agree that… yeah, there’s a lot of hit and miss with them (and most people only care about the hits). I think it’s pretty much impossible for a character to fit perfectly in a card’s description too, but it’s fun to watch when writers make attempts like this episode.
Ahahaha it made her curious.
POWUH: and LOLi Defender with 10998 comments
Only care for the hits. To the point where they will not only disregard, or ignore, but completely forget the misses. I’m a skeptic, and I turn over every single shred of evidence I can get my hands on.
Thanks for the compliment; the Sherlock books and the “amateur” comment were to big for me to ignore. As for the answers pertaining to the jobs; it’s a vested interest. They want to see their job completed.
POWUH: 900-999 with 915 comments
It was only me who thought of Persona 4 when they started with the talk about Arcanas and Tarot, etc…? XD
I enjoyed both the episodes, even though in places like school I can’t see how great the animation is… But the seiyuu of the movie really did a great job! It sure transmited a feeling of an amateur movie.
You know, I live in Brazil, and outside Great Britain and US, Sherlock Holmes is not popular at all. The closest to him that we can see around here is CSI (which I’m not a fan, too) so, I had a hard time trying to figure out anything about the mystery ><' And when I came up with any theory, there goes Houtarou to destroy it TT.TT You're so cruel…
When I saw Eru eating the second whiskey candy I could see Eru drunk at the end of the episode. She hiccuping every time was funny, too, but when she was red and out of the blue she became a ghost was incomparable XD I almost fall of my chair laughing.
Oh, I'm not sure, but I think I didn't saw Eru's "kininarimasu"… I expect a warm triple "kininarimasu" on the next episode, so he can start to put his calories to use by thinking. THINK HARD HOUTAROU! I'M EXPECTING A HOLLYWOODIAN ENDING FROM YOU!
POWUH: Meta Team and Megane-chan with 3214 comments
Nah, Persona likes making a ton of references to Tarot.
It did! KyoAni seriously put a lot of work into making something look like there wasn’t much work at all. Wasted effort? …Probably. The feeling was there though.
ME TOO. Not the theory exactly, but things like someone climbing above and coming through the window. Houtarou is seriously something to be able to dispute the theories after watching the exact same thing only once. His attention to detail is admirable.
Ahaha I liked her outburst at the end where she just kind of …collapsed. I wish I knew people who got drunk like that. It would be endlessly amusing.
YES. I really wonder about the ending to this since all of my theories were disproven this episode. …Plus the whole script mystery thing.
POWUH: Meta Team and Spammy Tamer with 7115 comments
I’m finding it interesting, even though I am totally not a mystery sort of guy. So all the stuff about Holmes goes way over my head. Also the tarot stuff is past me as well, as I’ve never looked into that either. The first episode of the arc did get me to look up Knox’s Decalogue, the 20 rules, and the 9 propositions (? 9 somethingorothers), and in so doing learn that they’re basically telling ways that the author can’t cheat, so that was interesting.
So I’m basically along for the ride on this arc, but enjoying it nonetheless. And Chitanda geting blitzed was pretty amusing. I’d chalk that up to usual anime high school kid not knowing what she’s getting into (the only time I’ve seen an anime characters seem to know they’re drinking alcohol was Maiku warning Karen in Onegai Twins).
And yeah, there’s something fishy about why not just ask the screenwriter about it. As Irisu pointed out, she’s not dead. Heck, Irisu was texting her at the beginning of the arc (that’s what I presume that was prior to chatting with the unnamed person on the chat room – and when does the penny drop with finding out that person?).
POWUH: Meta Team and Megane-chan with 3214 comments
…Holmes goes over my head. The Tarot thing was something that just happened to match up with things I already knew, but I think I’ll look up the 20 rules and etc. That sounds interesting.
Whoa, yeah. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an underaged anime character ever actually realize that they’ve had alcohol until it’s too late. As for being along for the ride, I would probably take up that stance if I were watching this all at once, but having to write my thoughts on this every week makes me think too much.
They were extremely careful about not letting slip who was who over the texting and the chatroom, so I’m extremely suspicious about the entire thing. I’m sure it will all fall into place at the conclusion. It would be ridiculous if Hyouka left lose plot points hanging.
POWUH: Meta Team and Spammy Tamer with 7115 comments
I’m thinking that the first person who was chatting with Irisu, before she was chatting with Chitanda, is going to be a much more meta character throughout the rest of the series. Thinking about it right this second, I wonder if it is Itoigawa-sensei, since she’d have a bit of a handle on the social dynamics of the Classics Club, and knowledge of their investigative style.
POWUH: and Vampire Lover with 11746 comments
Wow, Kara. Hyouka, Jormungand and Tasogare. You sure are working in overdrive lately. It was a good idea to review both episodes since they’re in the same arc.
Chitanda’s sugar rush! Moe overload!! Love Chitanda getting drunk off chocolates. I knew it was a bad idea seeing her eat all those chocolates. Pfft, her eyes changing color before going out was probably the result of her awakening her Mangekyou Sharingan (Mangekyou = Kaleidoscope). Her dislike for mystery novels was quite the surprise especially when it seemed she was all about mysteries. She’s as contradictive as Jormungand’s Jonah with his hate for arms dealers.
I was getting nostalgia watching the parts of the film with what looks like a rural village. Why am I thinking of Sotoba village all of a sudden? The buildings look very much alike.
A lot of thinking is needed to create a good mystery that will keep people guessing, focusing on particular people that will later lead to a huge troll. Another, Tasogare Otome x Amnesia and Blood-C are good examples of that. Especially regarding underhanded suspects like Fumito Nanahara.
It’s interesting hearing their theories and that they’ve figured out seperately what is needed in a movie genre and that each idea clashes with the other. Some ideas would be lacking, others would be too much to be necessary. Along with the different point of views of how the murderer would come and go. About the detectives, it seems like either nobody else read the script or they just don’t care. This certainly is a challenge. Hotarou hasn’t brought his theory to the table yet. It’s the first time I’ve seen him so stumped.
POWUH: Meta Team and Spammy Tamer with 7115 comments
The way I imagine Houtarou’s mind working is that he doesn’t really obsess about these mysteries. He just takes in information, and at some point everything clicks, usually when he hears or sees something particular that fits it together. I don’t get the impression that he’s thinking particularly hard about any of them, so I don’t really get the feeling that he thinks he’s ‘stumped’, just that he feels he hasn’t gotten that key yet, so he’s just waiting for it to show up.
One thing that’s kind of annoying me about this arc is the title: “Why didn’t they ask EBA?” I feel like it’s giving too much away, and that she’s some sort of key, but that the show is pushing it too much. It just feels blatant.
POWUH: iLurker with 1 comments
>One thing that’s kind of annoying me about this arc is the title: “Why didn’t they ask EBA?” I feel like it’s giving too much away, and that she’s some sort of key, but that the show is pushing it too much. It just feels blatant.
The title “Why Didn’t They Ask Eba?”is a play on an old Agathie Christie novel “Why Didn’t They Ask Evans?” I don’t have the novel, and its been forever since I read it, so I don’t know if the author of Hyouka is using Christie’s book as a blueprint for the mystery in this arc or not.
But, with the list(s) of Sherlock Holmes stories, and the coded marks next to each one, this may not be the case.
POWUH: Meta Team and Spammy Tamer with 7115 comments
Thanks, I didn’t know that. I still wonder if it’s meaningful to the story, given that the previous arc title “The niece of time” was meaningful.
I’m pretty much with Chitanda in the first screenshot: I don’t really care for mysteries. I like to *know* things, I like to find out things, but to me mystery stories are less about the final result than the process to get there. The show’s still enjoyable on my less deep level, tho.
POWUH: Meta Team and Megane-chan with 3214 comments
Thanks for the info about the arc title! …I wonder if the arc has anything to do with the novel, or if it’s just a nod to mystery novels in general.
POWUH: 500-599 with 543 comments
Well, Chitanda just wants to know everything about everyone as far as I can tell. In episode 8, she was wondering why the script writing wasn’t finished and why a simple sickness would stop the writer from finishing it. Mysteries are in the way for her, because then she can’t know everything. She even wanted to know things that the show blew past, like why the teacher would get angry or why she cried, and she refuses to think about it.
On this train of thought, she wouldn’t read mystery novels because the suspense and “finding-the-culprit-at-the-end” basis of mysteries would be terrible for her. Even if the motives were explained in full detail, it wouldn’t be enough for her.
Jonah (for the few episodes I watched) is more contradicting because he fights with an arms dealer even though he hates arms dealers. But it’s really the only job he could do well, so he needed to take it to live. His values are clashing with his needs. It’s not like he keeps asking Koko how to set up deals, ect. He lets her work, rather than pestering her about it.
POWUH: Meta Team and Megane-chan with 3214 comments
Yep, I blogged 3 shows last summer too though, so it’s not that much of a challenge. I just need to refine my time management. OTL
Hyouka and ninjas? LOL does not compute. I think she doesn’t like mystery novels either because: A.) She’s not self aware of how much she asks Oreki or B.) she doesn’t like figuring mysteries out herself, which would also explain why she asks Oreki so much. …Though she might not be conscious of that either. Eru is so concerned with everyone and everything else in life, I don’t think she thinks of why she does things as much as someone like Oreki.
Tasogare was pretty straightforward mystery-wise, I think, but Another was definitely a good twist at the end (everyone suddenly deciding to kill each other at the end aside). Will this be straightforward or will the answer come out of nowhere? …I have absolutely no idea. That’s the fun of it though.
The answer to the whole thing seems extremely specific since there are a lot of odd things were involved, so that doesn’t leave much room for the result. …To tell you the truth, I don’t even think Houtarou has even considered looking for a solution yet. Eru hasn’t asked him yet, and disputing other theories is easier then coming up with your own.
POWUH: 400-499 with 489 comments
why am I not watching this anime.
IT HAS BLOOD
POWUH: Meta Team and Megane-chan with 3214 comments
…If you’re looking for this every episode, prepare to be disappointed. I think this arc is just special. It IS a great anime though as long as you know what to expect.
POWUH: 500-599 with 543 comments
You brought up an interesting point about the seiyuus having to pretend to be bad. I didn’t think about it, but the movie was genius in the camera-shaking and bad acting. Not to mention a “real” mystery comes by and gives us a chance to test out Houtarou.
But as these two episodes have passed, I’m wondering if he’s even fully listening. Usually there’s something that tells him “oh, this is it” but we’ve only had these tiny little clues thrown around that are all somewhat contradicting. I’m at the point where I think that this murder isn’t even a murder- a hand cut off with that little blood isn’t much of a murder, it’s a concussion with a missing hand. Seriously.
POWUH: Meta Team and Megane-chan with 3214 comments
Yep, yep! the people put in a ton of effort and talent to make something look terrible. …I’m sure there’s a joke in there somewhere, but I’m still in awe that they even did all of that.
They said that the hand was improv, right…? If that’s the case, then maybe it really was just a concussion. There would be a lot less speculating if the whole production had a better name then ‘Mystery’, but it seems like the title plays a bigger part since each of the three people interviewed had their own for the production.
POWUH: 500-599 with 543 comments
I don’t think the title is super important, but it could help. The writer just didn’t make one, because the script wasn’t done. Titles are hard to come up with. She probably wanted input from other people, too. The Classics Club probably wants a title, though, because sometimes titles have an importance to the story.
POWUH: iLurker with 1 comments
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